Beheadeddemon - Rat

The Psychology of Talia

For throwntotheair, who has a few questions about Talia. :) I’m grouping this under a few broad questions that should bleed into answering some of the others you mentioned.

The preface of this, of course, is that all of my answers are based in the character of Talia al Ghul prior to Grant Morrison writing her. So the 30+ years of content and development we had beforehand. Grant largely ignored the fundamental pieces of her character that were recurring themes over the years, turned her into an infanticidal rapist and, generally speaking, made her as 2-dimensional as possible. His interpretation also gave Talia wildly inconsistent motives, so he is not a good measure for delving into her character.

What are her motives?

Talia has always been motivated by one thing: love. Love for her father, love for Bruce, love for Damian. Even love for the planet (though less so than Ra’s). Each step of her journey has love somewhere in the why. The primary conflict for her, especially early on, was the tug-of-war between acting for good (because of her love for Bruce) or acting for evil (because of her love for her father). 

The animated series still gives one of the best summaries of Talia’s goals, too: she says that she believes in her father’s vision for the world, but not in his means (namely mass genocide). 

Even in dealing with Damian (Morrison, again, notwithstanding), I think she meant everything for love (I’ll explain more in the ‘why did she raise him this way’ section).

When she throws Jason into the Lazarus Pit in Lost Days, her letter to him says that she has done this “for love.”

Despite her badassery, Talia is actually a very loving, empathic person (though sometimes she denies it). Either way, love is at the core of what she does. For her father, that love spills over into loyalty…most of the time.

Why the loyalty to Ra’s (Why has she never stood against him?)

Wellllll this is two parts. The first question: love and indoctrination. The second question: she has.

First we have to understand that Talia is pretty much a psychological trainwreck. In Batman Chronicles #8, we see one of the only stories that’s specifically from Talia’s point-of-view. This and Lost Days are as close as we really get to such direct access to her thoughts.

Yeah. She’s messed up. We should note that Ra’s, despite his being just about Worst Dad Ever, does genuinely love Talia, in his own way.

Realize that Talia has been raised exclusively in Ra’s in environment (like Damian) and that the way she raised Damian was A LOT like she was raised. She’s in a place where he father is viewed as a deity, it’s this massive, powerful cult, and so there’s a level of indoctrination going on.

But that said…Even from the beginning, Talia was defying her father.

She thinks for herself and, growing through the years, she becomes increasingly agitated, worn down and plain ol’ fed up with her father. I would argue that in most cases, she betrays him for Bruce (or Jason, or Damian) because she knows he’s wrong.

(Prior this panel, Batman asks why Talia is betraying Ra’s, and if it’s because she loves him:)

Doesn’t she seem to be lacking independence?

Here’s where I think there was a massive missed opportunity. Talia, after being shot for betraying her father in Tower of Babel, nopes out and goes off on her own. She’s fed up with both Bruce AND Ra’s.

Ra’s shows up and has Talia kidnapped to bring her back. She winds up rescuing Bruce one more time before leaving BOTH of them and heading off to Hong Kong, where she becomes a successful businesswoman in her own right.

At the time, Lex Luthor is about to run for president. He shows up at her door:

Talia becomes CEO of LexCorp. I wish so much that more happened in this era for her. She butts heads with Superman a few times (and even teamed up once and it was awesome), but it was so under-utilized. In the end, though, she runs the long con on Luthor, willfully bankrupts LexCorp and sells off the assets to Wayne Enterprises. Mostly just to spite him.

She hates Lexcorp mostly because she’s an environmentalist. And because Luthor.

So she’s this awesome independent businesswoman who manages to trick one of the smartest men in the DCU.

Unfortunately, her half-sister shows up during this era in Death and the Maidens. She kidnaps and tortures Talia by murdering her over and over and bringing her back with her Lazarus Pit. This goes on until Talia’s psyche shatters.

Nyssa brainwashes Talia, first with intent to kill Ra’s. Ra’s eventually kills Talia.

When Nyssa kills Ra’s, she and Talia both continue with Ra’s mission (with Nyssa as the Demon’s Head until her death). Then Talia, still brainwashed, becomes the Demon’s Head and leads into the modern area (as with Villains United which ran pretty close up to the New 52).

Why did she raise Damian in that environment?

To put it short: because it was how she was raised and because she knows it’s the only way for him to survive. When Talia was 18 (her first appearance) she was kidnapped by an enemy of her father. Her entire life has been violence, danger and bloodshed. Her father is a powerful, dangerous man in a dangerous world.

If Damian had not been trained, in her mind, he would not have survived. I think she believes it was the best way for him to be able to protect himself. Some indoctrination bleeds through (as her raising him would be post-brainwashing, though the timeline is a bit wonky). 

I hope that helps! I’ve got a lot more essays in on my blog, plus one that’s a comprehensive account of Talia’s history.

You guys have no idea how often I think about Talia racer au

old messy coloured brush test/sketch. talia is actually a good driver she just doesnt care about the speed limit when anybody but damian is in the car so jason has to clench his cheeks when she is behind the wheel

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To me, Damian is something of a rainbow baby. Talia tried numerous times to conceive naturally, but the effects of the Lazarus pit made it impossible for her to do so. Still, Ra’s demanded an heir. So after many painful failed attempts, she used an artificial womb. She watched her son grow in a tube. She’d sit by him every day to make sure nothing went wrong, sing and talk to him, anything to make sure he was okay. And when he came out, she was overjoyed. From the moment she held him in her arms, she knew something had changed. Suddenly, the league didn’t matter. Ra’s wasn’t even an after thought. All that mattered to her was keeping her child safe. Making sure that this new piece of family would never be taken away.

some of my fave apex ladies

— watercolour, gouache, coloured pencil

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Melisande (Talias mother) to me was a figure of light and love for Talia in her formative years. While her father would train her, the only times he’d ever go easy were when Melisande asked him to. She was an excellent care taker. Soft and warm in contrast to the cold callousness of Ra’s. She who would hold Talia and sing her lullabies, stroke her back and hold her hand. Who could persuade Ra’a to do the best thing when doing the right thing wasn’t possible. Beloved by her people. Her death scarred the family forever. Ra’s pushed harder, his recklessness caused him to use the pits more than he should have, and caused Talia to train relentlessly day and night. It hardened both of them, but Ra’s was already stone to begin with.

Forgot the hashtags again

Aight so I’ve been thinking long and hard about Talias fighting style thanks to a prompt from the homie @hadariwizard and I think I have enough figured out to finally write something on it

It’s a bit difficult for me to figure out power scaling. I don’t want to say that she should be stronger or better than another character because I could be totally wrong about it. But I think she should be on par with Batman when it comes to her capabilities as a fighter. I think she could be easily compared to characters like Black Widow or Gamora from Marvel comics.

Like for one just look at them real quick

Then compare the fact that they’re both trained from young ages RELENTLESSLY to be basically living weapons. They’re both experts at various forms of combat, mastery over various weapons from melee to firearms, expert tacticians with a mind made for battle, like I can literally keep going.

And now Gamora and Talia

Gamora is raised by the mad Titan Thanos. Talia is raised by The demon Ra’s Al Ghul. These men manipulate their daughters into aiding in their evil plans, and for the most part these two women desperately want to make their fathers proud. Raised and trained to be weapons for their fathers, occasionally shown affection and love to keep them on their side. Not to mention them both having a sister who’s tried to kill them.

As for her comparisons to Batman, that just seems clear. Talia has more training than him, and has trained for a longer time. They both receive training from the same/similar people. From what I’ve seen, she’s not really seen as a person who fights frequently, so people tend to underestimate her capabilities. In reality, it just makes her seem stronger in my eyes.

Talia knows when a fight is needed and when she can get her way with WORDS. She’s clever, and a master manipulator. Like I’m talking Azula level liar. She can use her wit to get her way without ever having to lift a finger, but when she DOES fight she is a DEMON. Come on now!! I think as annoying as it is to be underestimated, it also has a very clear advantage, and Talia uses that effectively. Never let your enemy know the full extent of your power.

One fighting scene I keep imagining in my head is her in this long flowing dress with a slit down the side. She’s got one hand behind her back and the other holds a chalice of red wine. Three thugs move to attack her and she uses her legs to swiftly take them down, never spilling a drop, looking down at them and taking a sip from her drink.

Another is one where she’s fighting alongside Batman and has promised to not kill anyone so she’s taking down these armed guards and dismantling their weapons at the same time, then using the pieces as a blunt object. That sort of stuff has been done before I just think it’s fun. Like she can definitely take a gun apart blindfolded and put it back together in 30 seconds.

I have a new Talia piece I’m working on but the henna designs take so much time 😭

snile

peepaw and his baby boy

If your plot feels flat, STUDY it! Your story might be lacking...

Stakes - What would happen if the protagonist failed? Would it really be such a bad thing if it happened?

Thematic relevance - Do the events of the story speak to a greater emotional or moral message? Is the conflict resolved in a way that befits the theme?

Urgency - How much time does the protagonist have to complete their goal? Are there multiple factors complicating the situation?

Drive - What motivates the protagonist? Are they an active player in the story, or are they repeatedly getting pushed around by external forces? Could you swap them out for a different character with no impact on the plot? On the flip side, do the other characters have sensible motivations of their own?

Yield - Is there foreshadowing? Do the protagonist's choices have unforeseen consequences down the road? Do they use knowledge or clues from the beginning, to help them in the end? Do they learn things about the other characters that weren't immediately obvious?