The Creature (frankenstein) And Jason Todd Parallels:

under the hood is not a conflict formed out of violent miscommunication; it’s a tragedy born out of irreconcilable differences between father and son, catalysed by the most traumatic event conceivable.

whilst, yes, batman initially believes jason was fighting him because he failed to save him then later on believes that jason is asking him to kill joker in that moment instead of making him watch the joker to be killed, the resolved miscommunication fixes nothing. you can even say it gets worse because now it’s not something that can be understood as an unavoidable hurt of the past or an easier justification of his moral line, it’s the one thing that is somewhat reasonable to ask but that batman is unable to provide- killing the joker himself or allowing jason to take the joker’s life without trying to prevent it.

jason knowing that batman attempted to kill the joker in his grief or that nightwing did succeed temporarily changes nothing because nothing changed. the joker is not dead and the fact remains that if batman and nightwing wanted him truly dead, he would be and the deaths of so many would have been prevented.

jason knows he was loved, in fact he actively mocks it because that love was not enough to save him or avenge him like he points out the same for nightwing when bludhaven explodes. but he doesn’t need just love, he needs to be prioritised by his father and batman can never let go of his morals to do so. in batman #425, batman implies that the death of so many as a result of garzonas’ fathers vengeance is jason’s fault, showing that it’s only a natural consequence for a father to avenge his son, with the only one at fault for the blood feud being the son’s murderer. jason has every right to have expected batman to kill based off this and batman just can’t do it. therefore batman hides behind his mission to rationalise his guilt to his son, causing jason to replicate his language of vigilantism and costumed conflict, using his own goal to appeal to him.

both jason and bruce are simultaneously correct on their moral stances on murder (not taking into consideration the extremes and perhaps diversion from the core of their moral philosophies), it’s been a subject debated and questioned for an inconceivably long period of human history and will continue to be done be done because there is no definitive ‘right’ in ethics. they’re both highly intelligent, motivated, and thoughtful characters who definitely considered all possibilities and landed on their moral code.

moreover, even if one of them was more ‘correct’ than the other and should move towards the other moral view, they can’t; both have made their stances on the issue as a foundational to their lives. batman can’t let go of his belief in hope and the sanctity of human life and jason can’t let go of needing vengeance to be able to continue on in his second chance at life and the question of how many more lives is he willing to risk for sustaining an individuals right to life.

also, on a meta level, their conflict is that of conventions of the superhero genre combatting criticism of it. batman does as any hero is expected to and treats jason as the antagonist he is with his murder spree whilst also responding to the final trolley dilemma by trying to find a ‘third option’ of keeping both jason and the joker alive. but jason mocks and criticises batman’s approach to vigilantism and the given tropes he embodies and we are somewhat encouraged to root for him in part of his calling out of batman’s extremes such as when he cries out for the death of captain nazi. jason pushes batman into a moral corner and he is killed by him because of it, shutting down jason’s genre awareness and serving as a final, damning critique of batman. both batman and jason todd’s defiance can not co exist because to do so would erase the valid criticism jason makes without meriting it or would cause batman to betray his own respectable mythos.

it’s a tragedy of father and son torn apart by their conflicting and extreme opposing moral principles that cannot be altered without work being put in that dc is unwilling to do. they both need to fight because they love each other and feel the need to bring the other to their side, but in their futile efforts “everybody still loses.”

in a. I don't wanna say better because let's be clear this would suck. but in a different world nightwing brothers in blood ended with the three of them forming the world's most toxic superhero team of nightwings for exactly four days before dick finds out about jason and cheyenne sleeping together and accuses jason of only doing it to piss him off. jason proceeds to talk mad shit about all of dick's former relationships. dick says he wishes bruce's aim was better. cheyenne wants to know what the hell dick meant by "don't worry, I'm not mad at you, it wasn't your fault." the three of them have an all out brawl the likes of which we haven't seen since dick's mob era. jason stabs dick. dick breaks three of jason's ribs. cheyenne electrocutes both of them so hard they pass out. she goes home and starts a toxic lesbian situationship with her assistant. dick and jason wake up and silently agree to go their separate ways and not tell bruce about this. dick goes back to gotham. jason already told bruce about it because he wanted to start drama. bruce makes a comment about picking his teams better because he's worried about dick's safety and dick hears "you are bad at what you do and you need better teams to back you up because you don't know what you're doing. by the way I hate the titans" and dick is like the FUCK did your just say about my friends and then they have a screaming match that escalates into a physical fight the likes of which we haven't seen since that time in fugitive where dick roundhouse kicked bruce in the jaw and punched out the glass of the good soldier case. this happens in the span of three issues maximum.

(batman #422)

as much as this story is deeply flawed, this is an interesting take on batman’s no kill rule. batman is a figure practically leading a one man war against violent crime, and being someone who holds restraint with every fibre of his being he knows he needs a system to hold himself accountable if he loses himself along the way.

despite the system’s extreme flaws maybe, to bruce at least, there is no better way for batman to define his moral limits and judgements. he doesn’t hold good account with jim gordon because otherwise he would be arrested, he could easily evade arrest; but he does it to be under the spotlight of the best representation of a possible uncorrupt legal system. the justification that he is one kill away from being a serial killer shouldn’t be the truth necessarily but it’s the worst case senario that batman must account for- the potential flaws of letting himself define what he does meaning he becomes the extremes of violent crime he is fighting against.

it’s ultimately hypocritical because batman aligning himself with the law means he perpetuates a corrupt system that causes part of the violent crime he despises and when he goes above and beyond to solve a case such as his interrogations it imitates police brutality. however, in fiction, injuries and trauma caused by batman’s methods have less consequences than the inescapable reality of murder and the reliance on corruption lets infamous rogues out of prison yet again leads to more entertainment. this meaning batman’s hypocrisy is much more palatable and justifiable on paper.

Abandon all hope ye who enter here - warning you should heed before becoming a JT fan

post-crisis batkid canonical ages

“It’s impossible to figure out comic book timelines” - people who are not me and who I cannot relate to. I have crafted this, a coherent, canon-compliant timeline. A quick preface:

This is all for the Post-Crisis (i.e. New Earth/1986-2011/Pre-Flashpoint/pre-reboot/“preboot”/best) continuity.

My main principle here is diegetic evidence from comics >>>> evidence from supplemental materiel (like calendars, timelines from secret files & origins, character encyclopedias, etc)

Second principle is that mentions of ages, birthdays > mentions of time passed > non-birthday month placements (e.g. the start of school years).

We’re going to go youngest to oldest, because it actually makes more sense that way.

Damian is 10-11 at the end of preboot.

Damian’s birthday is not given in Post-Crisis.

Damian is 10 when he becomes Robin, per Batman and Robin vol 1 #1. He is still 10 in Batgirl vol 3 #17. That is the last time I am aware of where his age is said, so he may or may not have turned 11 in the short remaining time before Flashpoint.

Tim is about 7 years older than Damian. He is 17 at the end of preboot.

Tim’s birthday is July 19th (Robin #116).

Tim turned 16 in R#116, before the One Year Later event (where, as you may guess, a year passed), meaning he is at least 17 after OYL. Tim is still 17 in Red Robin #25. Damian becomes Robins between these events, meaning Tim is 17 when Damian is 10, and they are ~7 years apart.

RR#25 is the penultimate issue of Red Robin. Coupled with the significance of an 18th birthday and the fact that we never see one, there is virtually no chance that Tim turned 18 before Flashpoint. He’s 17.

Stephanie is <1 year older than Tim. Steph is 18 at the end of preboot.

Stephanie’s birthday is not given in Post-Crisis.

Stephanie was 15 when she first became Spoiler, per her recounting the story in Secret Origins 80-Page Giant. She is still 15 in Robin #59. In between these events, Tim is stated as 14 in Robin #43. Therefore, Stephanie is older. Stephanie “died” when she is 16, per the last story in Batman Allies Secret Files and Origins, between R#116 and OYL, meaning Tim was also 16. That makes her less than a year older.

She is also one grade above Tim, starting college in Batgirl vol 3 #1, shortly before it’s confirmed by Red Robin #17 that Tim (had he not dropped out) should be a senior in high school.

Stephanie starts college in Batgirl vol 3 #1, and we have every reason to believe she is starting at the "normal” time, making her 18. Since Tim is 17 at the end of Post-Crisis, and Steph is less than a year older, she can’t be any older than 18.

Jason is 1 year, 11 months, 3 days older than Tim. Jason is 19 at the end of preboot.

Jason’s birthday is on August 16th (Detective Comics #790).

No ambiguity here! Tim and Jason are exactly 702 days apart, unless Tim was born on or right after a leap year, making it 703. We know this because Jason’s 18th birthday is on August 16th in DC#790, which occurs after R#116 and Tim’s 16th birthday, but before OYL where Tim turns 17. This means Jason must have turned 18 when Tim was 16.

Jason’s age is never explicitly said after his return. But because his birthday comes after Tim’s, and Tim is still 17 at the end of preboot, we can be completely confident that Jason is still 19.

Cass is 6 months, 21 days older than Jason. Cass is 19-20 at the end of preboot.

Cassandra’s birthday is on January 26th (Batgirl vol 1 #33).

Cass turned 18 in Batgirl #37, shortly before both R#116 and DC#790, meaning before Tim turned 16 and Jason 18. This is well after No Man’s Land, so we can be certain Tim is long-since 15 (see below cut), and since her birthday is in January, we can also be certain Jason is long-since 17. This means Cass is less than a year older than Jason.

Cass’s age is also never said towards the end of preboot, but can be estimated via Jason (via Tim). Knowing Jason is 19 and Cass is 7 months older, we know she must be 19-20 at the end of preboot. However, since her birthday is before Tim’s, we cannot say if it’s passed to be more specific than that.

Dick is probably 6 years, 4 months, 26 days older than Jason (5 years, 10 months, 6 days older than Cass). He is 25-26 at the end of preboot.

Dick’s birthday is complicated, but imo the best bet for Post-Crisis is March 20th (see below cut).

Dick’s age is extremely messy, but here goes. Dick is 19 when Bruce fires him (Batman #419) and Jason is at most 12 when Bruce finds him shortly after (see below). Dick turns 20 while Jason is Robin (Secret Origins vol 2 #13 and New Teen Titans vol 2 #18). Dick is at most 21 in Deathstroke vol 1 Annual #1, after Tim is introduced. This means Dick is 20-21 when Tim is introduced at 13. The ONLY possible way to make all those ages work is for Dick to be ~6.5 years older than Jason, ~8.5 years older than Tim.

Dick’s age is not really said after that, except the vague mention in Nightwing vol 2 #134 that the time around his 17th birthday was “almost ten years” ago. This fits with what his age should logically be based on the difference to Tim, and we can confidently put him at 25-26 at the end of preboot.

A detailed timeline, references, and explanations of what was included or had to be ignored under the cut:

Keep reading

"I asked Grok" "I asked ChatGPT" I asked the Oracle and it told me you're going to kill your father and marry your mom

nothing shows a character is evil quite like a good cooking montage

yet another reason why queer romance in media that is very subtle or more queer-coding than actual explicit rep is so much more compelling than the wealth of straight stories that are out there is bc I think a lot of romance writers forget that you have to like. show not tell. and imply things. and if you hustle things along and put two characters together for the sake of it instead of really working to build their relationship and show how well they work with each other it's not really going to be as interesting to people. and for some reason, a staggering amount of people do not know how to write romance properly so you get a very bland forced dynamic that either feels like an afterthought (he's a boy and she's a girl, hey they could be together because that's what happens!) or the only thing that matters about their characters (see her? she's the Love Interest. that is all she's there for)

however if you're being censored and you literally can't make your characters say "I love you" or kiss or maybe even hold hands you're going to have to come up with more creative ways to tell your audience that they're in love and that usually results in the most poetic beautiful stuff you've ever seen that's SO much more interesting than two characters who make eye contact and go into the slow-mo rose petals scene that's basically screaming at you "hey look at these two. they're in love. you're supposed to be invested in their relationship now. do you get it?" eye contact held for slightly too long in an emotional scene is more compelling. a hand very lightly touching their back is WAY more compelling.

and might I add this is not even impossible to achieve with uncensored straight romances at all like Pride & Prejudice is wildly popular for this exact reason. how many times have I seen people going insane over the hand flex scene. they didn't even kiss in that movie unless you count the extended ending. and everyone loves it. because it's done RIGHT.

tldr; romance is hard to write and you have to put in the effort if you want people to care about your ship. now go forth and imply something

QUICK EDIT TO ADD ALSO when things are more subtle that gives people more space to interpret the dynamic as whatever they want. something might be subtle because that's all they're allowed to show, but something might be subtle because that literally what it's supposed to be. as an aroace person I personally see a LOT of queerplatonic vibes from more subtly played relationships and it's so incredibly exciting and heartwarming for me. and that's a whole new realm of relationship that I think should also be given more attention

in depth analysis of the (beginning of the) final confrontation of batman: under the hood

batman goes in with the mindset of trying to appeal to jason and get his son back and/or with the motivation to save the joker. is batman trying to save the joker out of his belief in the sanctity of life or to stop jason from murder, saving him from himself?

jason is taunting batman with memories of who they once were, drawing on how poetic it would be for that bond to become severed in the very same place. it has the effect of making batman more emotionally fragile and reminding him that the person he sees before him is still the same boy. it confronts him with the care he tries to hide and the effect of his actions on the innocent kid jason once was. however batman still tries to hide under his cowl and his mission, not indulging in jason’s taunts and shortly as possible asking ‘where is he?’ knowing that the ‘he’ would be correctly interpreted as the joker.

jason continues to assert his knowledge and control of the situation using his prolonged speech whilst further flaunting his suffering as a way to hurt bruce and make him vulnerable. batman hides once again and tries to combat jason’s control by being to the point and focused on the joker, not even using the jokers name or recognising any familiarity with his son. then both of them give up on communicating verbally and resort to the language they’re used to- violence.

jason puts a face of apathy over the death of a whole city, presumed to include his adopted brother. instead of horror he opts to rub in the grief that batman has now been confronted by the past and present failure of his mentees. but the ellipsis may show his true vulnerability or may be a way to further make his mocking dramatic. whilst the blowing of bludhaven was not intentional on jason’s part, this works in jason’s favour the most in terms of making batman hurt and vulnerable.

batman tries to save his son in vain, mostly because of his ill timing once again. jason sees his own confrontation between him and batman as taking priority, using cold rationale that there’s no saving ‘Dickie’ and taunting of batman’s moral code to ensure batman stays in the most effective way. batman has now lost his cold demeanour in desperate heartbreak, fatherhood prevailing as he pleads ‘Jason please, I-‘ in an extremely uncharacteristic manner. he finally acknowledges his son by using his name, says ‘please’, putting himself as inferior, and finally doesn’t even finish his sentence as he’s completely lost his composure. it’s extremely cruel but jason’s response is his own way of showing his desperation to keep his father in his place and maintain his control over the situation. jason isn’t denying that batman cares for nightwing, just as he wouldn’t refute that batman cares for him, in fact he weaponises that care to show that it’s futile; no matter how hard he tries to save them, they still end up dead because he won’t remove the problem at the source and continues to risk them for his moral code and idealistic hope.

jason continues being talkative as a way to maintain control, to distract, and show how vindictive he is now that’s he’s changed from the innocent robin. he brags about his underhanded techniques that are far from the technical greatness that his opponent taught him and begins to patronise in a way to undermine him and further prove how he is the ‘better batman’ in his mostly un-theatrical and practical costume. he also recognises and mocks batman having to improve after jason revealed a weakness of his previously. batman finally gives into the fight talking and takes the upper hand once again by revealing jason’s hypocrisy in his critique of batman’s reliance on weapons by burning his jacket. this serves as an act of showing that he’s not holding back, no matter how much he may care for jason.

batman knows that he failed his son but he incorrectly presumes the failure that jason is caught up on. he presumes jason’s issue with him is more unsalvageable, that being the fact that he wasn’t saved from being murdered. batman projects his own guilt of not being enough to save jason on him and can’t imagine any other reason, namely the way jason’s whole existence was erased as if he never existed, and most importantly that the joker has had countless more victims since. the ellipsis shows his hesitance and attempt to be gentle with his appeal to his son, perhaps being unsure how to ever ‘fix’ jason’s hurt over being murdered. ‘I tried to save you’ implies that batman thinks jason believes he wasn’t cared about enough in life for his father to stop his murder or he’s trying to make jason see the logic that it wasn’t batman’s fault- here he names jason to show that he’s attempting to talk to him as ‘bruce’ to ‘jason’ with a sense of familiarity. the ‘I’m…I’m’ when talking about ‘trying to save you now’ shows his struggle with emotional vulnerability and an awareness of how cruel it is to claim that he’s trying to ‘save’ his son by looming over his crumpled body after beating him to a pulp. batman had never tried to truly talk to jason other than when it seemed he was physically and dynamically in control and this is only after resorting to violence first (although he was goaded into it), the exception to this being when nightwing was at stake. jason only responds to this meagre justification with desperate anger, pointing a gun pathetically at him and responding incredulously with the rhetorical questions ‘this what you think this is about? you letting me die?’ at every point previously jason had seemed to perfectly predict batman’s intelligent yet emotionally stunted thought processes however he is truly caught off guard at batman’s lack of deduction. he then goes on to question which side of the man has failed his ‘judgement’- the guilty father/hero or the narrow and single minded man on a mission. he criticises his ‘antiquated sense of morality’ that being a reference to his repellant to death at all costs, both jason’s and the joker’s equally as suggested by the past and present ways of trying to save jason from death and murdering. for the first time it jason addresses bruce without a hint of mocking behind the name and tells him earnestly that ‘i forgive you for not saving me.’ this carries the implication that jason knows that bruce is at fault for his death in some ways but that his main concern wasn’t with the things that bruce couldn’t control about his death, perhaps seeing a grudge as useless or genuinely forgiving even without a direct apology. jason forgave bruce and sheila in his final moments, knowing that the circumstances of his death of a fatal combination of fear, helplessness, and coincidences. he died a hero, he just wished he was remembered as one by being worthy enough to make batman stop the joker for good, not a victim who projected his hurt over dying on the one who failed to save him.

jason gets up from his position on the floor and aggressively and indignantly gets to the point of his confrontation- why is the joker alive? the repetition of ‘why’, use of ellipsis, the exclamation of ‘on god’s earth’, and excessive use of punctuation all express how unthinkable and rage inducing it is for the joker to live, adding to how baffling it is to jason that batman thought his problem was not being saved. it implies that jason had the full assumption that batman would kill the joker- it was not a special demand but an expectation- so the fact that the minimum for being cared for after his death wasn’t fulfilled or even understood further hurts and enrages him.

here jason truly tries to be persuasive by being as open as possible in his criticism, a change from his previous snarky comments, insults, and arrogance. by beginning the speech with what he is supposedly ‘ignoring’ various points before listing them out furthers how valid his point is, showing his empathy and desires are rooted not only in himself- perhaps implying that bruce’s are- but also the wider suffering caused by one man. the list begins with the more distant, more inconceivable picture of ‘entire graveyards’ and ends with a reference to barbara, going from a more logical quantity of suffering to the more personal pain and responsibility over a loved one. there’s an appeal to ‘the past’, showing his expectation of killing is not based on character or the supposed worth of the joker but as vengeance and prevention of suffering in the future as implied by the phrasing of jason being ‘the last person you’d ever let him hurt’; this both could mean the joker should have died after ‘killing’ jason or that he never should have lived long enough to ‘hurt’ jason at all. through the phrasing of ‘let him’, jason makes it so that batman is responsible for the jokers actions through his own inaction in killing him or preventing his atrocities. the repetition of ‘i thought’ before revealing how mistaken he was in having faith in bruce shows his vulnerability and hurt, maybe seeing now how futile his arguments are against the cold expression of batman’s cowl as suggested by his hesitance to declare his own care. the emphasis on ‘me’ is both a way to convince bruce to see what he should have been valued as a son and a plea to be affirmed that he was enough of a son at all. jason then goes on the express his own care through the conditional of ‘if it had been you’ and how unexpected it was that the same was not done for him in reality. the violent imagery and blunt language of a ‘bloody mass’ is a reminder of the suffering that jason went through other than the bomb and his actual death- this is a more vulnerable and vivid imagining compared the unrealistic references to your own death. this comparison also seems more cruel on the part of bruce because whilst jason’s unreciprocated feelings of care in vengeance can be seen from the lens of batman and robin as a partnership, it’s also on the level of a parent and child with the scenario of a child going after his fathers murderer compared with a father not being willing to do the same for the other. there is the emphasised ‘you’ which contrasts to the previous ‘me’, which shows that despite how much reasoning jason may give, his issues are about bruce not valuing jason as much as he thought he did. the hyperbolic language of ‘search the planet’ and excessive pejoratives of ‘pathetic pile of evil, death-worshipping garbage’ ends his argument with a tone of anger, reflecting his conviction in his hypothetical actions if bruce were to be the one to be murdered. the whole time jason is kneeled over the joker whilst pointing a gun at a hunched over batman. this reflects the levels of power of each of the people in the room through the visible heights, along with their attitudes, with batman being closed off and shameful, jason being aggressive in his attempt to have power over batman through weaponising his words, and the joker just gleefully observing. the bottom left panel has batman coldly looking at jason, with his cowl acting as a facade to his emotions, contrasted to jason who is angry almost to the point of tears and splattered with his own blood. the backgrounds mirror all of this with batman having a white background, not restricted to a panel and holding the most power, emotional composure, and moral superiority, this juxtaposed with jason only having a fraction of his face showing on the bottom right. jason looks straight forward whereas batman looks at jason, maybe implying that jason’s message is just as much for the reader as it is for batman or just representing how open he is with his emotions.

batman now faces forward (now in the position of giving his view to the reader), bares his teeth, and gives a short vague reply telling jason that he doesn’t ‘understand’, either implying jason never saw the true purpose behind the dedication to never kill, bruce himself, or the idea of batman and it’s incompatibility with killing. jason once again starts asking rhetorical questions, both showing he is more open to understanding bruce and that he still does not ‘understand’ by assuming what bruce is talking about at all despite bruce implying that he can’t have thought of it. jason thinks it’s a matter of ‘moral code’ and it’s harsh limits, maybe mocking his deontological views on the lack of reasoning behind not killing other than not being allowed by an abstract ‘line.’ bruce, with a downturned head, mournfully replies ‘no’, emphasised by the repetition, ellipsis and phrase ‘god almighty’ showing his true vulnerability for a moment. then batman shockingly says that killing the joker would be ‘too damned easy’, revealing his innermost temptations as a figure defined by his closed off stoicism that threat to completely destroy his control over his mission if he even gives in once. the use of black, white, and the walls of the building are symbolic of the emotions of the moment. in the 1st panel, batman has one black eye and one white showing through his cowl, in the 3rd it is completely black but concealed through the shadow created by his downturned head, and by the 4th, both of his eyes are shadowed over. the 2nd and 3rd panel looks as though batman is projecting darkness over the scene and almost reaching jason with it (with jason’s outstretched arm reaching back), contrasting to the white background he inhabited in the previous page and perhaps representing his darkness, shame, sadness, or emotional vulnerability. the 1st panel and 5th mirror each other through the use of a dark and light eye and flip the dynamics of their positions in the previous page, with jason now looking coldly to the side. the broken mask shows jason’s conflict residing both in vigilantism and personal relationship, his facade of cruelty and his authentic tears, his role as an antagonist and his position as a sympathetic son.