Nico Hülkenberg As The Wolf

Mark Webber Lore Masterpost

This is for @percervall who had the good fortune to ask for Mark Lore when I had just finished a massive Fernando Lore post and was itching to balance out my OTP Lore Files.

Disclaimer: I am primarily a webbonso girlie (gn), but I also love Martian (aka Sebmark), Butter (which we are now calling Aussie Cake - Mark/Jenson), and Nicomark, with an occasional dash of Oscarmark though I have Feelings about that (see below on Personal Life).

I was watching F1 for the last five years of Mark's career so his RBR days and personal life are what I know best but even so, I'm not claiming to be an expert so if anyone reads this and disagrees with any of it, please weigh in with your own thoughts! Input most welcome.

CW below for transphobia, ED/eating disorder, and vomiting unrelated to ED

EDITED TO ADD: I CONFIRM THIS POST IS SAFE FROM THE CANBERRA MILK KID ADVERT

Anyway - to the DILF Files!

Racing and Luck

Couple of things on this: Mark is from a town close to Canberra called Queanbeyan that is, according to fans who know Australia, the single most unlikely place in the world to produce an F1 driver. Throughout his book, he constantly comes back to "how can a boy from Queanbeyan get to F1?"

Mark got into racing comparatively late, at 13-ish, and he was tall. Tallness was a huge disadvantage during the era he raced, because of the regulations favouring low weights. Before he got his first F1 test, Bernie Ecclestone dismissed him as "too old, too big." He made his F1 debut at 26 which is *really* late in the modern era. He has said that he "didn't eat for five years" to keep his weight down and that the possibility of weighing more and relaxing his diet was a factor in moving to WEC instead of doing another season in F1.

As @stars-and-meteors wrote in the comments on @percervall's post, Mark was LUCKY in one way (though usually described as an unlucky driver) - he was in at least four major crashes in his career that could have been fatal. Two in Le Mans 1999 (video of his memories here), another flip in Valenica in 2010 which I saw live and nearly puked until I saw his head move. This clip shows the crash but not the aftermath - he threw his steering wheel out to signal that he was OK, and walked away with nothing more than minor bruises, so keep that in mind as you watch because it is dramatic. Then finally, when he was racing for Porsche in WEC after he retired from F1, he crashed hard in Brazil, so badly that his wife (watching at home with her son) assumed he would die. He was injured but ultimately fine.

So how was he unlucky?

Getting to F1 so late, with minimal sponsorship behind him - this was in an era where the driver academy systems we have now weren't as strong and he was outside of the bit of an academy system that there was

One early career bad move - went to Williams instead of Renault for 2005 (Renault won the WDC that year)

Finally got a WDC-winning car when he was 34, with a much younger generational-talent teammate (Sebastian) who was intensely favoured by the team (for pretty valid reasons in many ways) - never had good machinery in what could have been his peak years.

RBR and Seb Rivalry/Martian/Sebmark

The best way I can explain Mark's dynamic with Sebastian is that the Vettel grandstand at his home grand prix costs more to sit in than the Webber grandstand.

Here is a brief thematic overview of Martian I wrote in response to an ask. Please know that they once bought matching Porsches together, and that Mark has referred to their on-track crashes as "making love." They are a shipper's dream.

Because Seb is now such an elder statesman of the sport, a lot of people forget that he wasn't always as popular and well-liked as he (deservedly) is today. One of the many links in this post describes Mark as a "fan favourite" and he really was - he was seen as a chill, down to earth, funny bloke. Seb was also popular, but he was popular with a lot of the same demographic that are big Max fans today and he was a similar figure (though not as controversial). Some people compare Max-Checo to Seb-Mark but Checo has never been as popular as Mark was, and Seb was always less controversial than Max. But not a million miles away either.

Mark used to hold the record for most F1 starts without a win, and when he finally won his first race I think every F1 fan was happy for him. He was definitely seen as a safe pair of hands, journeyman driver, not a standout but not bad either.

Anyway, then Adrian Newey built a great car in 2010.

Mark led much of the 2010 season, but due to some bad luck, bad starts and a shocking last race, he came 3rd in the WDC to Seb and Fernando. It went to the last race. Seb won his first title never having led the standings all season, but he was consistent and had good strategy calls, and also he had the backing of the team. The Front Wing Incident led to a classic moment of Mark Lore. The team had a new front wing, Seb damaged his and was given Mark's. The team will say that Mark hadn't liked the wing, and that Seb was ahead in the standings at the time. Mark maintained Seb was being favoured because young, German, RBR Young Driver Programme, Helmut Marko, etc. Mark won the race. Christian came on the radio to congratulate him and said something like, maybe now you'll crack a smile. Mark replied with "not bad for a number two driver," and Lore was born.

(Apparently there was a team barbecue at Christian's house to try and mend fences, involving karaoke. Mark's karaoke song, according to Seb's remarks on the Australia GP podium some years later, is Summer of 69.)

Anyhoo, Mark lost out at the last race in 2010, Seb dominated all over 2011 (in his book, Mark says that the team behaved in 2011 as though Mark had been a second driver all through 2010 and Seb had led the whole season, when Mark had been closer to the title than Seb), and 2012 (Alonso was amazing that season, so it was great racing and not an easy title for Seb at all, but Mark didn't challenge him).

Then came Multi-21. I think it's fair to say that at the time, most people agreed that Seb had been out of line, although some thought so because he'd fucked over Mark and some because he disobeyed his boss. Either way, Seb was apologetic and then wasn't. It's been suggested since that Seb's lawyer letter to the team may have been sowing seeds for him to break his contract and move to Ferrari - he did activate a break clause in 2014 to move to Ferrari for 2015.

Anyhoo, after Mark's retirement he and Seb mended things, they are clearly on good terms now and Mark had lots of nice things to say when Seb retired. But it was acrimonious at the time.

Broadly, I think most people feel like if a few minor things had gone differently, Mark might have been a one-time WDC, but that he never really had the next-level skill of the likes of Seb, Fernando, Lewis, or even Jens or Nico. He's often ranked alongside Felipe Massa as someone who would have been a deserving champion but never an all-time great.

Webbonso

I've done some Webbonso lore masterposts before, so please see this, this and this if it's something you're into. Mark and Fernando seemed to have a falling out in after 2018 (which we call the Divorce Era, and may be linked to Fernando signing with Alpine for 2021 when Mark wanted a seat for Oscar Piastri, who Mark managed) but the Divorce Era was confirmed ended in 2023, with Mark gushing over his boy again, on screen hugs, and Mark sharing a post on instagram with a little red stiletto heeled shoe emoji imposed on Fernando's tiny foot.

Actual Personal Life

Mark is married to an English woman named Ann Neal, whom he met when he was 17 and she was 30. She became a friend of his family because of her motorsport connections (she worked in motorsport in Australia), then became his manager, and moved him to England without his family when he was 18-19. He lived in a box room in Ann's mum's house, with Ann, her mum and her son (she was recently divorced), and they shared a car. Their relationship apparently turned romantic when he was 20 and she was 33. (This is all from his autobiography). @lightningmickqueen wrote a great summary of this which is worth reading. Basically - problematic AF and it's hard for me not to think of him as a victim though he does seem very happy.

This is also why Oscarmark is never a simple ship for me. I love their dynamic, I like them both as drivers, but because I feel like Mark is a grooming survivor and there is both an age gap and a power imbalance between him and Oscar, I don't think I'll ever write an explicit fic about them. Any I've written before are very much on the yearning side.

No serious allegations of cheating on his partner have ever emerged. He did a series of photoshoots and videos with Maria Sharapova for Porsche and a lot of people joke about their "affair" but nothing at all to suggest its real.

Controversy (esp transphobia) and Views

Well one big controversy is the fact he was groomed as a teenager, but no one in motorsport talks about this, although the fandom is pretty switched on about it all.

But the biggest is the transphobic tweet. I won't link to anyone else's blog here because I have been told that posting about Mark's transphobic tweet can bring out trolls with both pro-trans and anti-trans views (fyi: I do not believe it is possible to be anti-trans, you cannot be anti-people, it is simply not allowed, but I refuse to use the terms that bigoted people invent for themselves and reclaim and weaponise).

In short - Mark retweeted a tweet from a news channel about young trans people reverting to their assigned gender at birth with the caption "Now it's called Detransitioning" and a laughing emoji. (Ugh). Then he doubled down when called out and said it hadn't been meant to be funny, he found it hard to keep up with terminology and he is a "proud heterosexual" with "gay friends of both genders."

And he has never apologised.

Of course, the meme potential of proud heterosexual Mark Webber is endless, but trans fans have asked people not to use it jokingly because it is a reminder of a transphobic incident and can be upsetting to encounter.

Basically, Mark can be Gen X all he wants but he has the brain of a Boomer.

He's generally conservative. A big believer in pulling yourself up by your bootstraps, "common sense", and "old fashioned country values" from his "traditional upbringing." That said, and I'm not suggesting this is a defence for the ways in which he is terrible but it belongs here, it seems these views don't extend much to racism, as he is a big, vocal fan of Lewis Hamilton although doesn't comment much on his activism except to say he is an all-round class act.

Mark was also managed by Flavio Briatore for most of his career and Flavio is dodgy AF and was literally banned for his role in race fixing, so. There was brief talk after Crashgate of suspending the superlicence of any driver who was repped by Flavio. Mark and Fernando were among them and held firm and the threats weren't carried out.

General Unhinged Lore

His almost-WDC in 2010 was achieved with a broken shoulder

He has Questions about Fernando Alonso's leg waxing

He coined the nickname Britney for Nico Rosberg by saying "don't think so mate, Britney's in the wall" when he was told not to enter the pits in favour of Nico before the pit wall realised Nico had crashed

He is ridiculously handsy with other men

Gifs of Mark making an oral sex joke on Ziggo Sport

I have a whole tag of Mark being unhinged - including his "fully expected sec-sex-sections" interview about Seb, the Piping Hot Dickstickers interview, and the buying matching Porsches story.

He is known to be obsessed with red wine, chocolate, tennis and dogs.

He always has two dogs, usually with S names. He's had Shadow (RIP), Simba (RIP), Saxon and...others I don't know. He lived in England for most of his career (unusual) and moved to Monaco when he retired.

When he first won the Monaco Grand Prix, he hadn't packed a tuxedo and had to show up in jeans, a sweater and deck shoes. He says no one minded. this definitely bolstered his 'down to earth guy' image.

He once continued driving while literally being sick in his helmet. (This is GROSS).

His team radio on his first win is legendary.

And finally. YOU MUST hear his scream in commentary at Azerbaijan. It is amazing.

Sebastian Vettel & Lewis Hamilton: 12 years sharing podiums together ✰

Laguna Seca 2008: Valentino Rossi might have entered the eleventh round of the season with the lead in the championship, but he did not have momentum on his side. After a tricky start to the season, he had claimed three consecutive victories... before the tide began to turn against him. The man who had beaten him so easily to the championship the year before, Casey Stoner, had fought Rossi for second place at Catalunya, only narrowly missing out after a race-long battle. It was the start to a worrying trend: Stoner was in the process of bringing his rocky title defence back on track. His Ducati team managed to take the decisive step at the post-race test at that circuit; from then on, Stoner once again seemed as invincible as he had the year before, taking dominant victories in Donington, Assen and Sachsenring. Worse still, Rossi's crash at Assen had made him briefly relinquish the championship lead to Dani Pedrosa and had slashed his points buffer to Stoner. While Pedrosa's crash at the Sachsenring had ensured Rossi retook the championship lead, Rossi was once again frustrated with his struggles in qualifying. Against the fast-starting and clinical Stoner, he could not afford to keep fighting his way through from a long way back. Otherwise, Stoner would keep escaping out front and Rossi's points lead would keep dwindling and dwindling... Something had to change.

Stoner had dominated the round at Laguna Seca the year before, winning by almost ten seconds. It was the only circuit on the calendar save for Misano (only introduced in 2007) at which Rossi had raced and not yet secured a victory. The previous year he had come a distant fourth, the best of the Michelin tyre finishers at a track where the difference between the two tyre manufacturers was particularly egregious that season. His best result had been a third place secured in 2005 - which he intended to improve on that year, this time equipped with Bridgestone tyres to match Stoner's. From Friday morning, however, it looked like Rossi's task that weekend would be one of damage limitation. Just like in the previous three rounds, Stoner set about his business by dominating every practise session. Meanwhile, Pedrosa - still in severe pain caused by injuries sustained at the Sachsenring - faced the prospect of another dire weekend for the Michelin tyres. He eventually made the choice to withdraw from the race, effectively turning the title fight into a two horse race. Come qualifying, Stoner comfortably secured pole, with Rossi managing to at least take second place... but going by the evidence of that weekend, there was no real doubt as to who the winner would be. In press, Rossi joked he would need a thirty second head start to beat Stoner.

The race was supposed to be a fight for second place. It turned out to be something nobody was expecting. Stoner rocketed off the line as per usual, while Rossi got a decent start - briefly ceding ground to Nicky Hayden but managing to hold second into Turn 2. Stoner was already pulling out a few tenths over the field during that very first lap, which felt like a precursor to the inevitable. Rossi clawed back the gap, however, and overtook Stoner for the first time into Turn 8. From there, it was game on. To everyone's surprise, Rossi had managed to find just about enough pace overnight to keep himself competitive against Stoner's vicious pace... not enough to be faster than Stoner, but enough to frustrate him from in front. The battle between the two was at its most frenzied on Lap 4 - with a series of passes that culminates in Rossi's infamous corkscrew overtake in which he briefly goes off the track and only just about keeps the bike upright, bumping into Stoner in the process. Stoner threw himself at Rossi again and again as Rossi took ever more creative lines to keep Stoner behind, to make Stoner's life as miserable as possible. It was an escalation of hostilities from Rossi, who had decided to drag Stoner into a vicious scrap and intimidate him through any means possible. Stoner responded in kind, furiously desperate to beat Rossi - and willing to take some substantial risks to do so, see his overtakes around the outside at the notoriously terrifying blind Turn 1.

Eventually, however, Rossi caught Stoner out, forcing Stoner's error as Stoner ran wide off the track. Caught out by shallow gravel giving way to deeper gravel, Stoner went down in a crash slow enough to be more of a tip-off, effectively ending the fight for the win. Stoner managed to pick up the bike and - as a result of the ferocious pace the pair had been running - managed to finish in a comfortable second place. Still, the damage had been done. Stoner was visibly furious at how Rossi had conducted himself, first refusing Rossi's handshake in parc fermé and then telling Rossi he had lost respect for him on the podium. He would later walk back those words, extending an apology that Rossi accepted, but it still marked a turning point in that rivalry. Worst of all, Rossi had seen his tactics worked - and his rhetoric after the race was dedicated to letting Stoner know to expect more of the same going forwards. It was as clear a message as Rossi could possibly have sent to inform Stoner of just how much he was willing to do in order to win.

Sebastian vettel as the fox

Lando Norris also fits the fox

photos by x

Hii! I was wondering if you could maybe explain the bus bros fallout or p2p gate or pretty much all of the McLaughlin-Newgarden lore to me since I'm only getting in to IndyCar now and I want to be caught up before the 500. I understand this is a big ask but I've seen that youve posted about it and I just NEED to know. Any links to other pieces of lore would also be much apreciated. Completely understand if you don't want to write anything though so thank you so much I advance!! <3

YES ABSOLUTELY I WILL EXPLAIN! this is my special interest dw i could write an 18 page essay about their lore.

SO basically scott came into indycar from supercars in 2020-2021 ish and him a josef started getting along like super well, which is honestly a bit odd bc josef is known to not really let people get so close to him, so scotty is a bit of an outlier in that respect.

eventually! they make bus bros!!! wooooo everyone loves it etc etc they have fun making it…. until they don’t! leading up to their breakup there were QUITE a few clues that they knew it was gonna end in flames like scott talked about it on off track (see audio excerpt below) and on hot seats with hinch if i remember correctly?

there’s also a fair share of articles that mention it. they basically knew it was inevitable but i don’t think anyone thought it was gonna happen so quickly??

so then the winter break leading into the 2024 szn happened! this is about when i started getting really into bus bros and was honestly pretty present for some of this shit (i was at the daytona 24 and st pete so i’ve got some first hand evidence but we will get to that later)… anyways so the rumors start going around that bus bros is over around?? st pete time i think??? a little bit earlier. which is odd given that they seemed okay with each other at the daytona 24, even though i thought it was strange that they weren’t both on tower motorsports anymore cause josef switched to penske porsche but GENERALLY it seemed okay (although based on this pic idk their relationship seems a little charged atp but it’s all speculation really)

then after the rumors come out i think it was jenna fryer’s article that did it in? (idk it has a paywall on it for me right now and i don’t care enough to find it here but there’s definitely excerpts floating around) now i do recommend to take anything jenna fryer says with a grain of salt bc she is essentially a gossip columnist for all intents and purposes. but the article basically said that josef and scotty were done and scott wouldn’t answer any questions about it and was only saying that they’re fine or to ask josef about it (tea from todays 100 days to indy episode actually…). they promptly took down the bus bros merch site and have been relatively quiet since then. at st pete they talked on the podium and didn’t seem too bad but i’ve seen other clips where they won’t even sit next to each other or speak to each other so take that as you will. podiums are pretty much just publicity, cameras everywhere, you’d probably want to seem at least cordial with your teammate.

(pic 1 is mine, pic 2 is a pic of my tv from todays episode LMFAO)

so heres where most of the speculative stuff comes in. Josef dissolved his media company, unfollowed everyone, and cancelled bus bros leading into the 2024 season because he wanted to “get rid of distractions”, and really we could leave it at that, but i find it hard to believe that that’s the only thing that happened.

Josef is the dictionary definition of Penske Perfect, you won’t get any closer to it than him. he’s fucking OBSESSED with this idea of being perfect. perfect season, perfect body, perfect car, perfect team. obviously this isn’t feasible, but scotty seemed to have broken through that block in his little Penske Perfect brain and got him to LIGHTEN UP A BIT. and then the 2023 season happened. sure, josef won the indy 500 but it was one of his worst season finishes in a while and, to make matters worse, scott BEAT him. little scotty mac, supercars champion transplant from 2021 beat josef newgarden at his own fucking game after breaking down his walls and making him soft. i can see how that scared josef honestly. so he ended it. Scott doesn’t see things on a plane of winning/losing imo, everything is just experience for him. hell, he didn’t even know if he would end up in indycar and he sure as hell didn’t think he’d win races so soon AND beat his teammate. to josef, it’s JUST winning/losing. if he’s losing, he needs to be better. and he lost sight of that for the 2023 season. that’s why he had to come back and put an end to the shenanigans bc he knows scott makes him soft.

but that’s just my speculation!!!!! literally could just be nothing. maybe it is to josef, but i know for a FACT it isn’t to scott.

OH and with the p2pgate stuff! basically they had a component in their car that. was not supposed to be there! that prevented race control from turning off their push to pass like normal. (marshall pruitt has a rlly good article explaining it all here) and they were caught in long beach when race control forgot to turn on the push to pass during the sunday warm up and HMMMMM why do the penske cars still have it???? when has this happened before??? oh ok st pete! now they’re disqualified. josef used 9 seconds of p2p when it was not enabled and scotty only used 1.9 and will used none. so i’m led to believe that it was a josef-centered choice IF it was intentional to use the p2p when it was supposed to be inactive.

now josef really laid down the water works for that press conference at barber to the point that i was having a VERY hard time watching it. i felt bad for the guy. he seemed really fucking upset and i almost believe that it WASNT on purpose but. it’s just too good to be true right?

honestly i think this all could tie back to the downfall of bus bros in that scott maybe didn’t want to do the p2p thing but josef was willing to? and maybe that caused some sort of divide between them bc then again for josef it’s about Winning No Matter What, and yes scott wants to win but cheating isn’t the way for him. idk.

for more of their lore when they WERE friends, watch bus bros (duh), admit one, 100 days to indy, scott learns america: nashville, hot seats with hinch, and listen to scott’s episode on off track with hinch and rossi! also there are some very brief interactions between them on some older penske games videos before bus bros was even a thing but it’s not much. there are more but i can’t think of them rn…

sorry for rambling, if you have any more qs feel free to ask!!! i’m always available for brain picking :)

Zhou guanyu as a panda

also red pandas go really well with him too

new casey podcast have you seen it

https://m.youtube.com/watch?si=ye8wNfrvaPDjtpDV&v=IuwZN6aP8sg&feature=youtu.be

(link to the podcast) yeah I did, cheers!

there's not that much 'new information' per se within this podcast, though there's a bunch of nice tidbits about teenage casey. what stood out to me is how the framing of his journey to becoming a racer is... well, it's kinda new? it's not exactly surprising, because you could get a lot of this stuff from reading between the lines in his autobiography. the question of 'is this your dream or your parents' dream' is a very common one with athletes, and it's often a thin line... but, y'know, this podcast interview in particular is quite a noticeable shift in how casey himself talks about this issue. it's a shift in how he portrays his 'dream' of becoming a professional rider back when he was formulating his autobiography, versus how he's answering questions in this episode. his autobiography isn't free from criticism of his parents - but casey is always stressing his own desire to race. so you do get stuff like this (from the autobiography):

At this point things were getting serious. Dad used to say, 'If you want to become World Champion you can't be that much better than local competition,' holding his finger and thumb an inch apart. 'You have to be this much better,' he'd say, holding his arms wide open. Dad confirms this feeling still today: 'I know it's a harsh way to look at things but that's the difference between a champion and the rest. Just look at the careers of Dani Pedrosa and Jorge Lorenzo. Dani had Alberto Puig and Jorge had his old man, both of them hard as nails. If you want to make it to the top I think it takes somebody with an unforgiving view on life to help get you there. So I said those things to Casey, particularly when we went to the UK, because to keep moving up a level he couldn't just be happy with winning a race. If he wasn't winning by a margin that represented his maximum performance then he wasn't showing people how much better he was than the rest.' There's no denying that Dani, Jorge and I became successful with that kind of upbringing and sometimes you probably do need it. As far as I'm concerned Alberto was nowhere near as tough on Dani as my dad was on me or Jorge's dad was on him. That kind of intensity and expectation puts a lot of extra pressure on a father-son relationship that isn't always healthy. We definitely had our moments and there were a few major blow-ups to come. But at the time, rightly or wrongly, it was proving to be a good system for us and I was eager to continue impressing my dad and others with my performances on the track.

(quick reminder, jorge's review of his father's style of parenting was describing him as "a kind of hitler")

but in general the emphasis is very much on how much casey enjoyed racing, on how single-minded casey was when it came to racing. he might have been isolated by his racing (again this is from the autobiography, in the context of discussing being bullied by kids in school until he got 'protection' from his dirt track friends):

School life was a whole lot better after that but I still hated it. All my real friends were from dirt-track; they were the only people I had anything in common with.

and he's talked about how other parents misinterpreted his shyness as him not actually wanting to race, which meant they were judging casey's parents as a result (autobiography):

Mum tells me that the other parents thought she and Dad were awful because I cried as I lined up on the start line. She remembers: 'I was putting his gloves on his hands and pushing his helmet over his head. The thing was, I knew Casey wasn't crying because he didn't want to ride or because he was scared. He just didn't like the attention of being stared at by all these people!'

but like. overall racing for him was still something he portrayed as a very positive aspect of his childhood. something he always clung onto, something that was his choice to pursue

so... let's play compare and contrast with some specific passages of the autobiography and this podcast, you decide for yourself. take this from his autobiography:

After I started winning more times than not, and it was obvious my passion for bikes wasn't wavering, Mum and Dad decided that seeking out sponsors could be a great idea to help offset some of the costs of travelling to meets and keeping the bikes in good order.

and here, in a longer excerpt about what a sickly child casey was, what his mother said (autobiography):

'They tested him for cystic fibrosis and he was on all kinds of medication; you name it, he was on it. But Casey still raced, we couldn't stop him.' I know I was sick but Mum was right, I wasn't going to let that stop me.

versus this from the podcast, when he's responding to a completely open question about how he got into riding:

To be honest, I don't know if I was allowed to have any other attraction to be honest. I think it was, you know, you're going to be a bike rider from when I was a very very young age - and I'm not the only one to think that. I think my parents have stated that enough times to certain people and you know I was sort of pushed in that direction. My elder sister who's six and a half years older than me, she actually raced a little bit of dirt bikes and dirt track before I was born and when I was very young, so it was sort of a natural progression to go and do a little bit more of that and I think because at the time road racing was a lot more similar to dirt track. That was our sort of way in.

this was one of the very first questions in the interview, it basically just consisted of asking casey how he got into biking in the first place - whether it had come through his family or whatever. casey chose to take the response in that direction... it's not an answer that is just about his own internal passion, how he loved riding the second he touched a bike, how he loved it throughout his childhood etc etc (which is how it's framed in the autobiography) - but instead he says he wasn't allowed to do anything else. he says that he was pushed in that direction, that his parents have openly said as much to others. that he feels vindicated in the belief he was never given another choice

let's play another round. here from the autobiography:

Mum and Dad used to stand at the side for hours on end watching me practise at different tracks. They'd sometimes clock laps with a stopwatch as I went round and round. Other parents couldn't see the point in taking it so seriously but they didn't realise it was what I wanted. I was having fun. Working out how to go faster was how I got my kicks and I couldn't stop until I had taken a tenth or two of a second off my best time on any day. If another kid came out onto the track with me I would be all over them, practising passing them in different ways and in different corners, but most of the time they avoided riding with me and I would be out there on my own, racing the clock.

and this (autobiography):

I enjoyed racing so much that even when I was at home riding on my own I would set up different track configurations to challenge myself. I'd find myself a rock here, a tree there, a gatepost over there and maybe move a branch and that would be my track.

versus here, in the podcast:

Q: And did you realise at the time that you were - not groomed, is not the word but well you were being groomed to be a professional motorcycle racer, or obviously that was your only one reference point, that was the norm. Did that just feel the norm or did you think actually this feels a bit intense or how did you feel about it? A: I think it's hard, it's not until I sort of reached my mid teens where I started to have a bit of a reality check on what I was actually doing. Before then, you know I was competitive. I'm not as competitive as people think, I'm a lot more competitive internally rather than externally versus other people. I always challenge myself to things, so all those younger years was just getting the job done that I was expected to do. I enjoyed winning, I loved it, but you know I enjoyed perfect laps, perfect races, as close as I could get to that and you know from a young age I always sort of challenged myself constantly to be better. So I didn't just win races, I tried to win them - you know, if I won races by five seconds in a [...] race I'd try and win, you know I'd try and get to double that by the end of the day if I could. So you know that always kept me sharp and it stopped me from being sort of, you know, complacent in the position I was at. And it wasn't until sort of you know 16, 17, 18 that reality kicked in. I'd had a couple years road racing in the UK and Spain, been rather successful and then you get to world championships and you know maybe an engineer that was sort of - didn't have your best interests at hear. And, you know, I nearly finished my career right there after my first year of world championships just because of the reality of how hard it was in comparison to everything else I'd experienced up to that point. And, you know, it was a real reality check for me and I think it was then that I started to - you know consider everything around me and consider how and why I got to the position that I was in and that's when the mind started to change a little bit and realise that you know I really was being groomed my whole life just to sort of be here and be put on a track and try and win. And, you know, that was my seemingly most of my existence.

in all the excerpts, he stresses how much he enjoys his perfect laps, how much he enjoys riding, how there is genuine passion there, how dedicated he is to this pursuit... but then in the podcast, he's adding something else - how he'd been groomed his whole life into that role of 'professional bike racer'. that it was only in his late teens (when he was in 125cc/250cc) where he had this moment of 'man I never really had a choice in all this'

and another round. here's him talking in the autobiography about how all the money he got through racing went back into racing - but it was fine because it was the only thing he cared about anyway:

I don't remember seeing any of the money I earned because it all went back into my racing, although I guess at the time that's all I really cared about anyway. I didn't know anything else. Mum and Dad always said to me: 'If you put in the effort, we'll put in the effort.'

and here in the autobiography on how he just wanted to ride all day:

I couldn't ride my bike all day, though, as much as I would have liked to.

and him talking in the autobiography about his parents encouraging him and his sister to 'chase their dreams':

Mum and Dad encouraged both Kelly and me to follow our passions and work hard to chase our dreams. That might sound strange when you are talking about a seven-year-old but I don't think you are never too young to know that if you want something you have to earn it.

versus this in the podcast:

Q: And I've never asked you this before, but did you want to? A: Um... I think I'd been convinced of a dream I suppose. You know, yes I loved riding bikes and you know I really did enjoy racing... but there was lots of other things that I - I really enjoyed as well but just never had the opportunity or never was allowed to do anything else, so... You know, motorbikes for our budget everything fortunately dirt track was probably the cheapest way that you could go motorbike racing. You could survive on very very little in dirt track and show your potential in other ways. You know, yes, having good bikes and good tyres and all that sort of thing made a difference but it wasn't the be all end all, you could always make a difference in other ways, so... I think it was, you know - the best thing we could have done, racing through that. Like I said I enjoyed it, it wasn't until late teens, early 20s where I sort of was like, I don't know if I would have been a bike racer had I actually had a choice.

was riding really all he cared about? or were there other things he was interested in, things he just never had the opportunity to pursue? things he wasn't allowed to pursue? from the autobiography, you get the sense that his parents always deliberately portrayed it as casey's dream, something he was expected to work hard for in order to be allowed to fulfil. in the podcast, casey says it was a dream he was 'convinced' of. without wanting to speak too much on the specifics of this parenting relationship we only have limited knowledge of, this kinda does all sound like athlete parent 101: getting it into their kids' heads that this is the dream of the child, not the parent, before holding it over them when they fail to perform when their parents have invested so so much in their child's success. casey's family was financially completely dependent on his racing results when they moved to the uk - he was fourteen at the time. he was painfully conscious of his parents' 'sacrifice' to make 'his dream' possible. can you imagine what kind of pressure that must be for a teenager?

to be clear, this isn't supposed to be a gotcha, I'm not trying to uncover contradictions between what casey said back then and what he's saying now. obviously, this is all very... thorny, complicated stuff, and casey has had to figure out for himself how he feels about it, how he feels about how his parents approached his upbringing. but it is worth pointing out that this isn't necessarily just a question of his feelings changing over time - if the internal timeline he provides in the podcast is correct, he was really having that realisation in his late teens, early 20s, so on the verge of joining the premier class. that is when he says he had the thought "I don't know if I would have been a bike racer had I actually had a choice"... which is a pretty major admission, you have to say, especially given how rough those premier class years often ended up being on him. but then that realisation would have already come years and years before he wrote his autobiography, it would've been something he carried with him for most of his career. given that, you do look at his autobiography and think that he did make the decision to frame things pretty differently back then, that he decided to exclude certain things from his narrative. if this really is already something that's been festering within him for years, if he does feel like he wants to be a bit more open about all of that now than back then... well, hopefully it shows he's been able to work through all of it a bit more in the intervening years

(this is somehow an even thornier topic than his relationship with parents, but relatedly there is a bit of a discrepancy between how bullish he is in his autobiography about how mentally unaffected he was by his results, versus how he's since opened up since then about his anxiety. again, I want to stress, this is not a gotcha, he's under no obligation to share this stuff with the world - especially given the amount of discourse during his career about his supposed 'mental weakness'. it is still important in understanding him, though, how he consciously decided to tell his own story in the autobiography and how he's somewhat changed his approach in the subsequent years)

this is the rest of his answer to that podcast question I relayed above:

But at the same time you know I felt that no matter what I would have done, I sort of have a - my mentality of self-punishment, you know, of never being good enough that always drove me to try and be better and any single thing that I did, I didn't like it when I wasn't not perfect. I don't believe in the word perfect but I really didn't enjoy when I wasn't, you know, in my own terms considered a good enough level at anything I did so I would always sort of try to get up as high as I could regardless of what for.

at which point hodgson says exactly what I was thinking and goes 'god what a line' about the "mentality of self-punishment" thing. it is one hell of a line!

what's really interesting about this podcast is how these two big themes of 'this wasn't my choice' and 'self-punishment' end up kinda being linked together when casey talks about how the motogp world reacted to him... so again I'm gonna quickly toss in a bit from the autobiography (where he's talking about casual motorcycling events he went to as a kid), because it does read similarly in how for him the joy and competitive aspects of riding are closely linked:

It was a competition but it wasn't highly competitive; it was just for fun, really. Of course, I didn't see it that way, though, and I had dirt and stones flying everywhere. I don't think anyone expected the park to be shredded like it was. When I was on my bike, if I wasn't competing to my maximum level then I wasn't having as much fun.

and back to the podcast:

And also because people truly didn't understand me, that I'm not there just to enjoy the racing. As we're explaining, before that, you know it was sort of a road paved for me... And so the results were all important, not the enjoyment of it. And then you cop the flak for everything you do. I'm also very self-punishing, so it was kind of a - just a lose lose lose and it was all very very heavy on myself, so... It, you know, it took me till my later years to realise I could take the pressure off myself a little bit and go look you've done all the work you've done everything you can, you got to be proud of what you've done, so... Not necessarily go out there and enjoy it, because I don't believe you should just be going out in a sport where you're paid as much as we are expect to get results and just - you know - oh I'm just going to go and have fun it's like... yeah, nah, if you're just going to go and have fun then you're not putting in the work. And that's when we see inconsistencies etc. So I was very very harsh on myself and so even when I won races, if I made mistakes or I wasn't happy with the way I rode, well then yeah I'm happy I won but there's work to do. There was more to get out of myself and so that's where I copped a lot of bad... um, let's say bad press because of those kind of things and then they sort of attack you even more because they didn't like the fact that you didn't celebrate these wins like they wanted you to they expect you to I suppose treat every victory like almost a championship and you know it's not that I expected these wins but I expected more of myself and therefore maybe I didn't celebrate them as much as you know other people do.

kind of brings together a lot of different things, doesn't it? this whole profession was a path that was chosen for him... which he links here to how the results were 'all important' for him, how it just couldn't ever be about enjoyment. he always punished himself for his mistakes, he was under constant pressure, which also affected how he communicated with the outside world... he was so committed to self-flagellation that he made it tough for himself to actually celebrate his victories, which in turn wasn't appreciated by the fans or the press. so on the one hand, casey's obviously still not particularly thrilled about how much of a hard time he was given over his particular approach to being a rider. but on the other hand, he's also describing how all of this can be traced back to how becoming a rider was never actually his 'choice'. he's detailed his perfectionism before, including in his autobiography, including in discussing his anxiety disorder more recently - but this is explicitly establishing that link between the pressure he'd felt during his childhood to how he'd been pushed into this direction to how he then had to perform. he couldn't afford to be anything less than perfect, so he wasn't, and at times he made his own life even tougher as a result of his own exacting standards. this just wasn't stuff he's said in such straightforward, explicit terms before... and now he is

my general thing with casey is that his reputation as a straight shooter or whatever means people aren't really paying enough attention to how he's telling his own story. like, I kinda feel the perception is 'oh he used to be more closed off because the media ragged on him but since retirement he's been able to tell it like it really is' or whatever. and I'm not saying that's necessarily wrong, but it's not quite as simple as that. because he's not a natural at dealing with the media, he's put a fair bit of thought into how to communicate better with them (which he does also say in the podcast), and he's explicitly acknowledged this is something he looked to valentino for in order to learn how to better handle. because casey has felt misunderstood for quite a long time, he's quite invested in selling his story in certain ways - and it's interesting how what he's chosen to reveal or emphasise or conceal or downplay has changed over time. which means there will be plenty of slight discrepancies that pop up over time that will be as revealing as anything he explicitly says... and it tells you something, what his own idea of what 'his story' is at any given time. this podcast isn't just interesting as a sort of, y'know, one to one, 'this is casey telling the truth' or whatever - it's reflecting where his mind is at currently, what he wants to share and in what way, and how that compares to his past outlook. the framing of his childhood was really something that popped out about this particular interview... it's not like it's exactly surprising that this is how he feels, but more that he decided to say all of this so openly. some pretty heavy stuff in there! hope the years really have helped him... man, I don't know. figure it all out, for himself. something like that