@ Karkathateseveryonesposts

Happy 10/25

Today is the 10 year anniversary of the destruction of the universe frog. Such an occasion is traditionally celebrated by destroying the universe.

Two questions: 1: did you actually make ~ATH, and 2: what was that Sburb text-game that you mentioned on an ask on another blog

While I was back in highschool (iirc?) I made a thing which I titled “drocta ~ATH”, which is a programming language with the design goals of:

1: being actually possible to implement, (and therefore, for example, not having things be tied to the lifespans of external things)

2: being Turing complete, and accept user input and produce output for the user to read, such that in principle one could write useful programs in it (though it is not meant to be practical to do so).

3: matching how ~ATH is depicted in the comic, as closely as I can, with as little as possible that I don’t have some justification for based on what is shown in the comic (plus the navigation page for the comic, which depicts a “SPLIT” command). For example, I avoid assuming that the language has any built-in concept of numbers, because the comic doesn’t depict any, and I don’t need to assume it does, provided I make some reasonable assumptions about what BIFURCATE (and SPLIT) do, and also assume that the BIFURCATE command can also be done in reverse.

However, I try to always make a distinction between “drocta ~ATH”, which is a real thing I made, and “~ATH”, which is a fictional programming language in which it is possible to write programs that e.g. wait until the author’s death and the run some code, or implement some sort of curse that involves the circumstantial simultaneous death of two universes.

In addition, please be aware that the code quality of my interpreter for drocta ~ATH, is very bad! It does not use a proper parser or the like, and, iirc (it has probably been around a decade since I made any serious edits to the code, so I might recall wrong), it uses the actual line numbers of the file for the control flow? (Also, iirc, the code was written for python 2.7 rather than for python 3.) At some point I started a rewrite of the interpreter (keeping the language the same, except possibly fixing bugs), but did not get very far.

If, impossibly, I got some extra time I wouldn’t otherwise have that somehow could only be used for the task of working on drocta ~ATH related stuff, I would be happy to complete that rewrite, and do it properly, but as time has gone on, it seems less likely that I will complete the rewrite.

I am pleased that all these years later, I still get the occasional message asking about drocta ~ATH, and remain happy to answer any questions about it! I enjoy that people still think the idea is interesting.

(If someone wanted to work with me to do the rewrite, that might provide me the provided motivation to do the rewrite, maybe? No promises though. I somewhat doubt that anyone would be interested in doing such a collaboration though.)

Regarding the text based SBURB game, I assume I was talking about “The Overseer Project”. It was very cool.

Thank you for your questions. I hope this answers it to your satisfaction.

So, I just found this and have no clue what's going on. Could you maybe make, like, a simple guide to programming ~ATH? I understand how your python works, but not how to program ~ATH.

Hi!That is sort of what this blog was meant to be.I was trying to explain how to write programs in it, starting with “how do I represent numbers in it?” but then I started prioritizing other projects.I do want to get back to this one though.Perhaps I can give a brief summary in this ask response, and you can tell me what parts you would like clarification on? I will attempt that. I would appreciate it if you tell me what parts of this explanation you are unclear on, or say more about what you don’t understand about how to use drocta ~ATH.

(drocta ~ATH, as a reminder, is my interpretation of how ~ATH could work, which attempts to stay as true to the comic as it can, while still being turing complete, and also possible to implement in reality)In drocta ~ATH there are things called objects. Every object (except for possibly one depending on the specific version of the interpreter, but that isn’t an important detail.) is initially alive. Once an object dies, it cannot be made alive again.Every object has a left half, and a right half, which are both objects. Just because an object is dead does not mean that its left or right halves are dead. Similarly, just because both an object’s left and right halves are dead does not mean that the object is dead.

Also, for any two objects (possibly the same object), there is an object such that the left half of it is the first object, and the right half of it is the second object.

(skippable sidenote : Yes, this would mean that there are infinitely many objects, but they are only /really/ created by the interpreter when they become relevant, so really there are only ever finitely many that the computer is keeping track of)

A variable, in drocta ~ATH, refers to an object. However, it often does not always refer to the same object at different points during the program.

For example, suppose you want some variable to refer to a number which changes during the program. The way that the number which the variable refers to changes is by changing what object the variable refers to.

There are two ways to change what object a variable refers to.

1:Suppose you have three variables names VAR1, VAR2, VAR3.BIFURCATE VAR1[VAR2,VAR3];will take the left half of the object that VAR1 points to, and make VAR2 point to it, instead of whatever it was pointing to before, if anything, and it takes the right half, and makes VAR3 point to it instead of whatever it was pointing to before, if anything.

2:Again, with three variables VAR1, VAR2, VAR3:BIFURCATE [VAR1,VAR2]VAR3;will take the object pointed to by VAR1, and the object pointed to by VAR2, and finds the object such that the left half is the first one, and the right half is the second one, and makes VAR3 point to this object.

Also, when you initially declare an variable it makes a new object for it.

Now, in order to make an object dead, you take a variable (named, say, examplevariable) which currently points to it, and put examplevariable.DIE();and then the object will be dead. Note that this does not make examplevariable point to a different object, which is the same as the one it pointed to before except for being dead. This actually changes the object.In fact, this is the only operation that actually changes an object.

loops:How do you do control flow with this?Well, you use ~ATH loops.

A ~ATH loop looks like this:

~ATH(SOMEVARIABLENAME){//SOME CODE GOES HERE}

What this will do, is it will check if the object currently pointed to by SOMEVARIABLENAME is dead, and if it is not, it runs the code which is {between the curly brackets}. Then, it checks again if the object currently pointed to by SOMEVARIABLENAME is dead, and if not, runs the code inside again. This keeps on repeating until a time that it checks if SOMEVARIABLENAME currently points to an object which is dead, and it is, at which point the program keeps running after the curly brackets.

Note that which object the variable name points to may be changed by the code inside the curly brackets, and probably will be. Changing which object the variable is pointing to is the main way to make the loop exit.

speaking of, let’s get to numbers:

drocta ~ATH doesn’t have numbers as a built in thing. You have to make up your own numbers. But there is a sort of standard way to do so. Where by “standard” I mean, “it is the way that makes the most sense / is the most obvious, and is the way I usually do it”

if some object is the positive integer n, then an object x which has n as the right half, and some object which is alive as the left half, then that object x is n+1 .1 is an object where the left half is a dead object, and the right half is anything.

The reason for this is because this way you can make loops which do things n times, for n>0.

say the object representing n is pointed to by VAR1 , and VAR2 doesn’t point to anything you care about, but it does point to something which is alive, and VAR3 points to an object which represents 1, but you aren’t using it for anything else. You can make a loop like this:

~ATH(VAR2){BIFURCATE VAR1[VAR2,VAR1]; //decrease VAR1 by 1BIFURCATE [VAR2,VAR3]VAR3; /* increase VAR3 by 1, except if this is the last time through the loop, in which case this makes a small error, but one which will be fixed later *///put the stuff you want in the loop here.//Don’t do things to VAR1, VAR2, or VAR3 that you don’t undo though. 

}BIFURCATE VAR3[JUNK,VAR3]; //removes the extra thing that was added to VAR3.

The result of this is that it will do the code you put in the middle n times, and that VAR3 will still store the number n afterwards.

Following processes like these, it is possible to do basically anything you could with a “counter machine / minsky machine” .

Fortunately, there are also things which make things a bit more convenient than using a minsky machine.

In much the same way that you can create numbers, you can also make lists.Just put the successive entries in the list as left halfs of objects, and have the right halves be the list as made so far. (so, basically, the left half is the first element, and the right half is the rest).A caveat here is to make sure that the left half is never a dead object, because that can make it so that the end of the list is detected pre-maturely. However, you might at some point (if you write a lot of drocta ~ATH, which, I am not certain why you would, haha) find that useful to cut the remaining part of a list off.

Of course, when I say to put something as the left half or right half of an object, feel free to switch that in each case. It doesn’t matter as long as you are consistent.

oh, I left out the parts about how to do input and output .

there are some example files on the github for you to check out which have that?

Please let me know if you have any further questions. I’m not sure which parts of this need clarification, so if part of it is unclear, you would be doing me and any other readers of my blog a favor by asking me to clarify them, so please do not hesitate to ask me to clarify any specific part, or to ask me any other question about ~ATH.

Thank you for your interest,

~drocta / ~hE 

okay, this might be a liiittle specific, and more HS oriented, but still. can you power a First Guardian using ~ATH? and if so, what are some ways?

This is a slightly off of the usual topic of this blog, which is more about a language which I made up and is based on and named after the language in the comic, and attempts to be as close to the comic while still being possible to implement and use, (the language in the comic is not particularly well documented), but I’ll answer it to the best of my abilities.

I’m not sure what you mean by “power”.

“Can I write a first guardian character that has some of their behavior be based on ~ATH in some ways?” : I don’t see any reason why not. If you can do ectobiology with a puppet and a cueball, why not with a computer running a program?

“Can I make a first guardian character who is a first guardian because of the continual execution of a ~ATH script?” : While you can of course write whatever you want, I’m not sure that this is consistent with what is said in acts 1-7 (I have chosen to disregard everything after act 7) about first guardians. It seems like an entity either is or is not a first guardian, and that this fact is established at the time of that entity’s creation. It seems to me like what happens with first guardians is: using ectobiology, the genetic code from some players’ subconscious-or-whatever is combined with some other source(s), and the result is a first guardian.

Oh, I suppose if you just mean “an entity has the powers of a first guardian as a result of a ~ATH script”, then, uh, I guess that doesn’t contradict anything. How would I depict such a script? Well, I don’t know that anything that we’ve seen of the language gives any particularly clear direction for what such a script would look like. If you want it to just have the keywords we’ve seen, possibly re-interpreted to mean something different, I guess one idea could be to like, say bifurcate an existing first guardian into parts with names that seem relevant, and also whatever entity is to have the abilities of a first guardian, and then like, un-bifurcate (unbifurcation is not something shown in the comic, but is something I’ve added to my language, in order to make it usable) the other entity, but with some component of the first guardian mixed in somehow? Though if you did that, you would probably want to justify why, if ~ATH can do that that easily, why it doesn’t happen all the time.

There is very little in terms of rules that the story gives for how ~ATH behaves. If you want to have a ~ATH script “power” a first guardian, just make up some stuff. If you want to depict the actual script, then look at all the pages of the comic that depict code from it, see what it says they do, and just make something up that seems to aesthetically fit.

The language that I have defined (”drocta ~ath”) does not provide any means of doing this, because the language I designed was designed to technically be usable, while also resembling the language in the comic.

I suppose that, as all first guardians get their power from the green sun, and the green sun was created by the circumstantially simultaneous destruction of, uh, either universes A and B, or specifically of A2 and B1, not sure which, and this was in some ways tied to the Möbius Double Reacharoud virus, you could argue that all first guardians get their powers from, something somewhat connected to a ~ATH script.

Why can’t I add tags to an answer to an ask?

WOAAAAHHHH I posted! (significant progress on functions)

Hey, I haven't posted in a while because I have been doing other stuff. Meanwhile some people followed me. Thank you.

OK, so news: I got calling functions working. it works and stuff.

huh, apparently tumblr changed the interface since I last posted? I think I preferred the previous version? w/e.

But what I haven't added yet is the syntax to define and create a new function. Right now I just have some functions hard-coded in as elements of a dictionary. If you want to try it out just modify the funCodes dictionary. (yes, I am terrible at naming variables.)

Yeah so, I an not totally sure what I am going to have for the syntax for defining a function, but the syntax for calling a function is

FUNCTION_NAME [IN1,IN2]OUT;

(which takes the object consisting of IN1 and IN2 and puts it through the function, where it would be stored as the variable ARGS, and when it finishes the last thing .DIE() was called with is what gets put into OUT)

and then theres

FUNCTION_NAME IN[OUT1,OUT2];

which kinda does the opposite.

takes in IN, and splits the out into OUT1 and OUT2

(this version (the FUNCTION IN[OUT,OUT]; one, as opposed to the FUNCTION[IN,IN]OUT; one) isn't actually implemented yet, but mostly I will just have to copy paste it from the other one and change a few numbers, but I have to homework now so I'll do that later.)

to clarify, the same functions can be used either way. You can say LIME [LIME,LIME]LIME; or you can say LIME LIME[LIME,LIME]; and they would both call the function LIME, but they would do slightly different things.

hooray for stuff.

anyway I am going to go uh, push that new version.

How should the syntax for defining a function be? Should it just be each file can be imported as a function?

I couldn't help but notice that out of some of the best things you could do, no link to the download in the sidebar? You may want to do that...

uh, yes. that would be good to do.

I put a link in the about section, but I don't actually know how to put links in the sidebar outside of that.

do you think you could explain that for me?(I am not particularly experienced with tumblr)

EDIT:Nevermind, my friend from school told me where the feature is.

Hello again all!

So recently I started kind of working on this again for a bit. I have fixed some bugs with the parser that I haven't pushed yet. I am also writing an improved interpreter that will use the parser instead of the hacky thing that just goes through strings.

However, for the time being, even after I release this version, I would recommend maybe using the older version for a while if anyone is using it, because this version is probably even more buggy.

However, you know how a few posts ago (but more than a year ago (wow) ) I posted that post where I said that I didn't think bifurcate can be used to split values into more than 2 values?

Well I still kind of think that, but on the map page for homestuck on act 6, it says split Act_6[Act_1,Act_2,Act_3,<etc>];

So this is something I intend to implement, and something I am implementing.

And like I said before I would like it to be done with repeated bifurcation, as a sort of syntactic sugar.

And I am thinking I want it to be like

[a,b,c] means the same thing as [a,[b,c]]

so split Z[A,B,C];

would be the same as

BIFURCATE Z[A,BCTEMP]; BIFURCATE BCTEMP[B,C];

and that split [A,B,C]Z;

would be the same as

BIFURCATE [B,C]BCTEMP; BIFURCATE [A,BCTEMP]Z;

But the way the splits would be done could also be backwards

so [a,b,c] could be the same as [[a,b],c]

I'm pretty sure I prefer the first way, but the second way is actually easier to implement.

or at least cleaner looking to implement.

Why doesn't my code look clean ever?

Anyway, my reason for this post is this:

Does anyone have any opinions about how split is implemented?

How do you use this?

Just to be super clear, though you probably understand this, “drocta ~ath” is not for practical purpose. It is purely an amusement.

That being said, to run this, you need to have python 2 installed. (Yes, currently most new python projects are in python 3. Unfortunately I haven’t gotten around to making any of the updates I’ve wanted to on this project, and it has been years since I’ve worked on it.)

To run it: download the github repository from https://github.com/drocta/TILDE-ATH

then, (probably from the command line, though running it in other ways may also work) navigate into the folder where you put all those files, use python 2 in order to run interp_2.py  . [1] Then, it will allow you to type something in. It would be good if it gave some sort of prompt saying that it is accepting input, but it currently does not. What you have to type in is the file name of the drocta ~ath program that you want to run.

for example, you might type:

python interp_2.py looptest.~ATH

in order to run the program looptest.~ATH , and then you would see the output:that alternates between “APPLE” and “ORANGE” a number of times (like, 5 times I think).

If it isn’t working for you, let me know and I can try and help you troubleshoot what’s going on.

If you are asking, not “how do I run the programs in this language” but “how do I write programs in this language”, uh, read through the rest of this blog I guess. It isn’t complete, but the point of this blog was meant to be a tutorial for how the language works. If you have any particular questions about how to do a particular thing in the language, then ask that. But I don’t currently have time to re-do the whole project of this blog and put a tutorial for the language as a whole in one response to an ask.

P.S. I am currently in grad school for math (I made this language while in high school). I haven’t been doing all that much programming lately unfortunately.

([1] What’s that? “interp_2.py” is a weird name for the main file? Indeed it is. Originally I had “interp.py” and then before I started using git I made a new version which I called interp_2.py, and then, for basically no good reason, I kept that name for the file. If I go back to this at all, I suspect that I will change that to just “interp.py” or maybe “main.py” or something. idk.)

Syntax explanation post completed, and Hello, World.

I have completed the syntax explanation post, and I think it is fairly clear now.

If you find any part of the post to be unclear, and that it requires further explanation,  please say so so that I can improve it.

Now that that post is in an acceptable form, We can get on to writing our first few ~ATH programs.

print Hello, World.; THIS.DIE(); 

That wasn't so hard, was it?

I feel I should note that the syntax of the print command is not entirely finalized, it might change sometime later.

EXPLANATION:

The first line of the program says to output the text "Hello, World." 

The 2nd line of the program says to end the program. This is because the variable THIS initially points to a object that is only alive when the program is running. If the object is ever not alive, the program stops.

oh gosh why is this a bullet-ed list I am not good with tumblr

To run a drocta ~ATH program, you need the interpreter (available from the github), and python 2.7 (the interpreter can be easily modified to run with python 3, but it is written to work in 2.7)

Open interp_2.py with python, and when the program comes up, type in the filename of the ~ATH program, and hit enter, this will run the ~ATH program.

With this example, it should output the text

Hello, World.

Now, of course, this is a relatively simple program, but at least its something.

Depending on how you are running the interpreter, the program might close immediately after outputting the text.

That might not be what we want.

To make the program not close until we specifically tell it to, we use the following:

print Hello, World.; ~ATH(THIS){ } THIS.DIE(); 

EXPLANATION:

The first line is the same as in the first program. It outputs "Hello, World."

The second line is different, this says to start a loop, which will continue until the object pointed to by the variable THIS is dead.

The third line says to go back to the corresponding ~ATH statement.

The fourth line is never executed, because the loop above it will continue until the object pointed to by THIS dies, and if that object dies the program ends. If it were to be executed it would make the object pointed to by THIS die, and the program would end as a result.

This program should be the same, except that it will keep running until you close it manually.

Now you have hello world written in two different ways!

Learn ~ATH turned 1 today!

yaaaay!

So I think that my explanations of things hasn't been very clear so far, and while I can't promise that they will improve, I do intend to teach programming in person at my school, which might help me to know how to make this tutorial better. Maybe, maybe not. 

May things go well!