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Hello! Hope not to bother with this ask but I read most of your analysis and I really love them. While I don't always feel the same about some things, I really like how you take the situation and look into aspects that may not be easy for everyone to see.
I also wholly agree with the "it's the writing and execution, not the concept or the characters' fault" point. I hope it doesn't come off as rude, but I really enjoy comparing views and points and while reading your post about the ladynoir conflict in season 4, I had some thoughts sparkling so I wanted to see your view on them. I also hope it makes sense how I present these points, since English is not my motherlanguage. You mention how Ladybug doesn't know that she's doing wrong and that there are various instances of her caring about Chat Noir and trying to make him feel more important. I see the point you were making and I honestly also see that Chat Noir's writing played a huge part in Ladybug acting like she did on certain situations, however I also often think about Season 4 ending. Ladybug is having a break down and she says that she distanced Chat Noir on purpose. I honestly think this is one more proof the writers didn't know what they were doing with the plotline, especially since Ladybug herself in Kuro Neko says she never realized. But as she is saying she was aware, instead, wouldn't it go against her not being aware? I guess probably my ask is more like a reinforcement of the writers having no idea about how to handle the plotline, and not a real comparison of views since we really see the series saying opposite things at the same time. But I kinda wanted to see what you thought about the idea of Ladybug/Marinette being written instead as aware of the distance she put and the lack of guilt in this circumstance. (At least, I didn't see any if this was what the writers were going for)
Like, taking Hack-san. She did a very long list for Alya on how to do stuff and collaborate to Chat Noir, even laugh at his jokes, and maybe it was shown to prove she does care, but at the same time she... never warned him she was leaving? I get she was in a rush but going to the bathroom for a 1 second call would show her consideration over the topic. At the end of the episode, she apologizes for revealing her identity but not for never warning him, not showing up to patrols without telling him... and when he opens up about his fear of losing her without having the chance to know something happened, there isn't some sort of solution offered? I know that the show's writing never really wanted to portray Chat Noir on an equal basis, but maybe it would be the right chance for her to show him she does trust and considers him an equal. Maybe telling him he can say the truth to someone so they both have someone to warn the other if something happens, or so that they're not surprised by new holders if one didn't tell about needing to step away from action. Sorry the rambling! I just think that the writers really made a mess in trying to show she cares but never in the actual things she could really show it, like by simply including him in crucial info like Rena Furtive. Like, we get confirmation she doesn't sees him as equal anymore in the first part of the season 4 finale, but he was once his supposed equal? Or was meant to? So does she effectively put a willing distance between them? I also think often about Ephemeral, because I get that they want to write quirky Ladybug that exaggerates in her plans but making Chat Noir reveal his identity to someone else without his knowledge by aknowledging also his crush as a way to get him to reveal... feels like a huge manipulation that I think wouldn't be necessary if they wanted to show she cares genuinely? Like, she could just ask him and explain the situation? Like, for the purpose of creating the drama, the writers forgot that at that point their bond should be solid enough for something at least as basic as communication? I guess my point after all this, is that while I get where you come from when saying she wasn't aware of how Chat was feeling and some stuff she has done, I feel like she definitely should have in certain situations? Especially because in many instances it feels that the writers were indeed holding true to her putting willingly distance and excluding him, and never really feeling guilty. I don't know, maybe I'm casually rambling nonsense, but I really would like to hear your view about this!
I completely understand where you're coming from. My seasons four rant was about the way canon chose to portray Marinette's awareness of the situation, not about how valid her obliviousness was for her character. I think some of it makes sense, but there are also a lot of moments that feel like poor characterization. Hack-San is a perfect example. The season literally opens with Chat Noir leaving Ladybug messages on her bug phone, establishing that this is a thing that they can do:
Scene: Ladybug yoyos to Montparnasse Tower. She sees Mr. Pigeon and checks her voicemail. Cat Noir: (on voicemail) Hey you, Bugaboo! Well, here I am, your faithful companion at our rendezvous point just like always. It's time for our daily patrol, I hope you haven't forgotten!
I don't think we'd ever seen this before. It feels like an element they're adding to set up for something later. And yet, when the time comes to use it, we get nothing. Marinette just leaves town without even thinking about warning Chat Noir. Which makes no sense when you remember that this is all happening after the New York special where Marinette took time to tell Chat Noir that she was going out of town:
Cat Noir: You're going away?! Ladybug: Only for a few days. It's nothing important, kitty-cat! But I can't tell you anymore, in- Cat Noir: In order to protect our secret identities. I know the drill, M'Lady. Ladybug: But in case, anything happens in Paris, an akumatized villain, a Sentimonster, anything... All you have to do is click here and I'll come back as fast as I can. For emergencies only, of course! (Cat Noir presses the remote button several times in excitement, making the toy in Ladybug's hand squeak)
The New York special also saw Chat Noir fail to tell Ladybug that he was leaving town, leading to Paris being defenseless during a sentimonster attack!
Everything about the New York special should logically lead to the heroes having a hard rule about informing each other when they're leaving town. And yet, that rule apparently doesn't exist. Why not?
The only logical reason is that the writers wanted to have Chat Noir attack Scarabella when he sees her for the first time, so Marinette had to keep him in the dark otherwise that scene wouldn't work. Her bad behavior was done for the gag, not because it made sense for her character.
This is why I can get so defensive of the characters. It is, as always, not a matter of defending their specific actions. It's more about looking at the broad story and getting upset at how inconsistently they've been portrayed. The writers don't seem to care about honoring personality traits they've established, honoring past events, or even just logically setting up their supposed plots! The characters will do or say whatever is needed to make a given episode work regardless of how out of character those actions are or how little sense it all makes.
The season four ending rant is another great example:
Ladybug: Why don't you just give up on me? I've lost ALL the Miraculous! I'm the worst Guardian EVER! I wanted to control everything, I didn't listen to you, I lied to you, I kept you at a distance! Every time you offered me a helping hand, I never took it! I really made a mess of EVERYTHING! (continues sobbing)
This rant backs up a lot of people's feelings about the season four conflict, but it doesn't back up the way the season four conflict was actually written. Let's ignore the stuff that focuses on Ladybug's actions for a moment and instead focus on this line about Chat Noir's actions
Every time you offered me a helping hand, I never took it!
When exactly did he do this? Might I remind you, season four opened with this:
Ladybug: Will you cut it out with the practical jokes? I could have really hurt you! Cat Noir:(answering while hanging by the yo-yo) M'lady, the only thing that really hurts me is when you make me go on patrol by myself. (sighs, relaxing his posture) I even missed your little angry pout. Ladybug: Sorry, Kitty Cat, I'm a bit over my head at the moment. (pulling him up) Cat Noir: I bet! "Guardian of the Miraculous", big name, big responsibility! Ladybug:(helping him up) I promise, I won't ever forget our patrols again. (Cat Noir winks at her, both head to defeat the villain) Cat Noir: Woohoo!
And this:
Truth: Cat Noir, tell me what- (interrupted by Ladybug throwing a present at Truth) Ladybug: (covering her parasol with foil) ...do you think about my new role as guardian! Cat Noir: If it doesn't change things between us, then I'm good with it!
Ah, yes, he's really stepping up here and offering to help her! What a wonderful partner! If only Ladybug had taken the help he offered here, then things would have been so much better!
To be clear, I'm not actually mad at Chat Noir for these moments, they just really highlight how bad the writing is. The opening episodes of a season should be the setup for the season conflict. In this example, Chat Noir should have been constantly asking to take on more responsibility. Instead, the season opens with him telling Ladybug to maintain their status quo, which she then does, and yet that's somehow a problem?
Since season two, the status quo has been that Ladybug knows everything while Chat Noir is kept in the dark and just shows up for fights. I think that was a terrible choice, but it's still what canon went with! The Chat-Noir-feels-left-out conflict isn't even new. It was already addressed back in Syren:
Cat Noir: This is so dumb! (stands up) Claws in. (detransforms) Plagg: (groans) What's taking her so long? (Adrien holds up his hands to Plagg, and starts to pull off his ring a little bit) Whoa, easy! W-What are you doing?! Adrien: (grimly) If you don't tell me what Ladybug is hiding from me, I'm done! Plagg: You can't do that! Adrien: (bitterly) Why not? No one'll know if I quit. No one'll care! Plagg: I will! Adrien: Why? (cynically) Because you won't have anyone to give you Camembert? Plagg: Oh, I'm sure there'll be another Cat Noir to give me cheese... (pauses, and turns to Adrien) ...but he won't be you. (Adrien's expression softens) Master Fu: (suddenly appears next to Adrien) Hello, Cat Noir. (Adrien turns and gasps in shock) Adrien: You! You're the man who— Master Fu: (holds up a vial of bright green potion) I'll explain everything, I promise. But right now, you must go and help Ladybug! (He gives the vial to Adrien and he takes it)
This episode ends with Master Fu visiting Adrien and, after that, this conflict seems to go away in favor of Chat Noir wanting a romantic relationship. Bringing the Chat-Noir-feels-left-out conflict back in season four is extra annoying to me because what even was the point of Syren then? What did Adrien and Master Fu even talk about? Why wasn't it enough? And if Chat Noir has always wanted more responsibility, then why didn't he take Ladybug's guardian promotion as an opportunity to ask for more responsibility? Why wasn't season four filled with instances of Chat Noir trying to step up only to have Ladybug reject him? Why are the writers completely failing to write the conflict they claim to be writing?
You can find lots of little moments to back up the idea that Ladybug should have done better in season four. The issue isn't that they're not there. The issue is that the writing completely fails to make them feel like informed choices. Things Marinette did knowing that this was a bad call or even just a good call that would also hurt Chat Noir. Instead, she's always portrayed as oblivious to the problems her actions might cause which makes it real hard for me to get mad at her.
For example, I personally think it was asinine that Marinette told Alya everything. Not because I don't like Alya, but because Alya's identity had just been revealed to the supervillain! In my book, that's an instant disqualification for being given privileged information. Logically speaking, that is the identity reveal that should have lead to bad things. Instead, for some reason, Alya telling Nino was the problem.
To add an extra layer of annoyance, when Chat Noir learns that Ladybug has told someone her identity, he isn't even mad about it! He doesn't ask for a similar free pass or ask why not him. We get nothing to paint this as Marinette making a wrong move or as her "pushing him away" like she'll claim she did in the final. Instead, we just get Chat Noir saying that he's sad that Ladybug could quit and he'd never see her again:
Ladybug: I'm really sorry, Cat Noir. I should've told you. I mean, if I found out that you told someone about your secret identity, I'd... probably be upset, too. I'm really sorry I hurt your feelings. Cat Noir: You didn't hurt my feelings. You did everything right. Paris will always need a Ladybug superhero to watch over her. It's just... I realized that if one day that hero wasn't you, m'lady, since we don't know each other's identities, that means... I'd never see you again. Ever. And now, I just don't know if I can bear it. Ladybug: I'll never abandon you, kitty cat. (smiles)
The writers of Miraculous ask you to please forget about this exchange while watching the Kwamis Choice two-part episode in which both Chat Noir and Ladybug quit without saying goodbye to each other and where they also never feel guilty about or apologize for that choice. Heck, don't even think about this during Kuro Neko which comes a mere seven episodes later and features Chat Noir quitting without saying goodbye or finding a replacement. Rules for thee and not for me, my Lady?
Once again, I'm not actually mad at Adrien for that, it's just a wild choice to have him make when he claims that never seeing Ladybug again would be something he couldn't bear. That's not a good setup for him quitting and the seven episodes between these two don't tell a story that makes his change in attitude work. Kuro Neko is episode 23 and episode 21 - Dearest Family - has this as its ending, showing Ladynoir having no problems:
Cat Noir: (grabs a golden paper crown on the coffee table) Since I'm the king, would you be my queen, Ladybug? Ladybug: With pleasure, kitty cat! Tradition is tradition! (Cat Noir puts on the paper crown lucky charm on Ladybug.) Ladybug and Cat Noir: Pound it!
And episode 22 - Ephemeral - has Adrien thinking that missing a battle is a big deal:
Adrien: I hope Ladybug didn't need me. Plagg, claws out! (transforms into Cat Noir) (He opens his cat phone.) Cat Noir: Fourteen messages? She must be furious. (calls Ladybug) Ladybug: (on the phone) Finally! Cat Noir: I know what you're about to say, Ladybug, but— Ladybug: (on the phone) Nevermind! We got through it. That's all that matters. But we do need to talk. Meet me at the top of the Eiffel Tower.
Making it really weird when he goes on to purposely skip battles in Kuro Neko. That might have worked if he was hurt when Ladybug wasn't upset in Ephemeral, but he's not. If anything, he's relieved making it really weird when he's upset about the team in the next freaking episodes!
Cat Noir: (upon landing on top of the Eiffel Tower) I'm sorry, but I really couldn't make it earlier. Ladybug: (waves) Hey, no big deal! That's the good thing about a team. It's not the two of us anymore! Cat Noir: Oh, yeah! So then, why did you need me exactly?
There's also the fact that neither of these two episodes see Chat Noir try to take on a bigger role in the team. He seems fine with his lot so it's once again really weird when Kuro Neko has him quitting after Ladybug doesn't immediately give him more responsibility. In fact, I think Kuro Neko might actually be the only episode in the season where he asks for more responsibility, meaning that he quits after being turned down once. (If there are other times, let me know in the comments or a reblog! Everything I could think of was him complaining to Plagg, but telling Ladybug nothing which is not how you write a good conflict. It's how you write Marinette being held to a totally unreasonable standard.)
I could go on for days listing examples like this. Nino, Adrien, Marinette, Alya, Gabriel, Sabine, and many others have moments I can do this with. Moments where I pull up an episode that establishes A only to follow it with a later episode that completely ignores A without any real logic to back the change. It's infuriating and is, once again, why I defend the characters so much. Your annoyance is totally valid, I just ask you to look at the big picture and see that this is a systemic issue that effects everyone, making it really hard for me to hold any character accountable for their worst actions because then if have to do it for all of them and that's just not fun. I often hate the same things that the character-specific salters hate and understand the resulting salt, I just can't get in on the salt because it's so obviously a writing issue and not an carefully crafted character beat.
As an example, I recently saw someone get mad at Marinette for not planning around someone getting her yo-yo even though she took the time to plan around the Kwamis getting lost and it's just like, my dear, that is what we call a plot hole or poor characterization. She is a fictional character. This was not an actual planning failure. This was the writers needing her to lose so they warped the rules and her character to make her fail. She is not allowed to make logical plans if the writers need her to lose just like Alya can only be observant when the writers want the plot to progress. Get a little perspective.
(Note I'm using "you" as a general term and not speaking directly to anyone)